Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 0:00

I'm so excited to have Karman Meyer on Hashimoto's NutritionRx podcast. Karman is a dietitian author and professional speaker. She helps people get back to better sleep and improved energy using a food-first approach. Carmen shares practical, reliable and simple advice that has helped hundreds of individuals make the small changes needed to lead to big results in their health. Hello listeners, my name is Nataliia Sanzo. I'm a registered dietitian, aka Nashville Thyroid Expert, specializing in Hashimoto's Hypothyroidism. I created this space to help you navigate the ever-confusing world of Hashimoto's and empower you with the knowledge to become your own advocate. Please don't forget to subscribe and follow this podcast on the platform you're tuning in from. Your support is greatly appreciated and important to the show finding its way to the ears of listeners just like yourself. Hi Karman, how are you?

Karman Meyer: 0:59

I'm great.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 0:59

Natalia, how are you? I'm doing fantastic. You know I've been wanting to invite you to my Hashimoto's NutritionRx podcast since the day published your book:

Karman Meyer: 1:14

Thank you so much and I really appreciate the invite to come and talk about this topic that is near and dear to my heart and I think, is getting a lot of great, worthy attention in the media, because sleep is pretty important.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 1:31

It is, and so the way we're going to structure this podcast, we're going to talk about the connection between what we eat and the quality of the sleep. Why and how does the food influence the quality of the sleep? Specific foods, or, I would say, best foods to eat in the morning right, that sounds actually like a good blog title. We'll talk about what if someone doesn't want to eat in the late at night. Is there other any herbal teas we can drink, right? And are there any foods we should avoid if we want to increase or improve the quality of our sleep? So let's jump straight into it, right? And actually, you know what? Before we get started, actually just for our listeners, I want to give them a little bit of a backstory. We've actually known each other for like almost a decade.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 2:31

Yeah yeah, it's hard to believe. Yeah, so you were my preceptor at Vanderbilt University that's where I did my dietetic internship and you were so sweet, so nice and now you grew up in air quotes right, you grew up into this amazing dietitian that doing all these incredible things, like you already have two books published, actually.

Karman Meyer: 2:54

Yeah, yeah, I know fellow Vanderbilt Dietetic Intern as well and I loved being a preceptor and meeting so many at the time future artist to be who are now doing such amazing things like yourself, and so it's definitely rewarding to get back in that way and, like I said, just keep those connections. Yeah, and I can't believe it's been, like I said, probably 10 years, but yes, 2015,.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 3:25

That's a graduation and we've known each other before, so I'm glad that we reconnected and we get to share this amazing. Well, you get to share this amazing knowledge with my listeners and I'm sure your audience would appreciate that as well, because sleep deprivation is an important root cause, or actually exacerbating factor, for Hashimoto's people. Right, because that's my audience, but people in general. Right, because sleep deprivation reduces thyroid hormone production and production. It affects immune function. It worsens symptoms like fatigue, brain fog, depression. So you don't have to have Hashimoto's to benefit from this conversation. So I think this episode will be very beneficial for people and I will be taking notes and I hope our listeners do as well. So let's talk about the importance of sleep. Why is it important? Why are we having a whole podcast episode?

Karman Meyer: 4:50

Yeah, you know we're both dietitians and so our primary focus is always on that nutrition piece. But I've discovered in my 14 years as a dietitian that sleep is foundational for good health. I mean, if we are eating perfectly, whatever that looks like, but, you know, just eating all these fruits and veggies and whole grains and lean proteins, but we're still not sleeping well at night, then it's, we're still going to see those negative health effects. So we have to still get good sleep. And you know everyone's going to have that occasional night of not so great sleep. It's, it's bound to happen. But you know, more often than not we really want to make sure we're prioritizing our sleep, not skimping out on good sleep, and that the quality is what it should be. And just you know, for your listeners, you know seven to nine hours is kind of that range of time that we need for sleep. But some research, recent research, has actually shown that seven and a half hours of sleep can be kind of like that sweet spot for most people.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 6:07

Such a great point because I think we read the same research, but I I'm looking at it from the Hashimoto's Hypothyroidism perspective and it actually that research study. Well, maybe it was a different one, but the research study showed that people who sleep less than seven hours and people who sleep over eight hours are all at an increased risk for having subclinical hypothyroidism. So you said it like you have to get like one, 7.5 hours of sleep. Set you alarm right, no more no less.

Karman Meyer: 6:41

It's true it's interesting, but you know the human body is an amazing thing and it's evolved to be this machine. And you know everything in nature sleeps there's. It might look different creature to creature, animal to animal, but everything has a sleep cycle and humans, for whatever reason, we're the only ones who sacrifice sleep. You know, we make up reasons that we are going to stay up later and watch our favorite TV show or scroll through social media, but we really have to get back to prioritizing sleep and getting enough of it.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 7:22

Absolutely. And the healing time happens when, during our sleep right, during the deepest sleep. So if you want to stay young and improve everything in your life your mood, your the way you feel, right, your hormones, your digestion, everything you have to sleep right. And another amazing thing I read it was it says the research studies says that all causes of mortality, mortality rates, increase three times in people with chronically deprived sleep right. And we're not talking about this. If you go out with your friends and then you just only get five hours of sleep, that's not chronic, that's just fun and maybe it's actually good for you, right? We need this recharge.

Karman Meyer: 8:11

Yeah, every once in a while, like I said, everyone has his nights and maybe some of them happen more in our younger years. But yeah, that that aspect of poor sleep and the connection to chronic diseases, as you said, every chronic disease out there, even fertility health, actually there's something connected to how we're sleeping. So in chronic can mean, you know, with insomnia, if you're having that three to four nights a week, every week, it's definitely becoming a chronic issue.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 8:53

Absolutely, and I think the reason it affects everything in our life is because sleep is connected to this hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis, right, hpa, that and when it's disrupted it can lead to mood disorders, cardiovascular diseases, right Increased risk of immune diseases like Hashimoto's. So I see a lot of clients was fatigued and brain fog because their circadian rhythm is disrupted. And we know that circadian rhythm, which is our internal 24 hour biological clock, right, we supposed to go to sleep at the same time, wake up at the same time. It kind of sets us on a nice right pattern and all the hormones hormones, hunger hormones, our cortisol, our adrenals, our even sex, feel like sex hormones, estrogen, testosterone they all go off that circadian rhythm. So when that rhythm is disrupted, everything kind of goes. Everything feels like up an uphill battle, right.

Karman Meyer: 10:02

Yeah, it is kind of like that communication line, I guess the HPA axis, and like with our adrenal glands and just cortisol levels increasing. There is that signal from the brain to our adrenal glands where we're producing more cortisol at certain times of day. That's very normal process. It's meant to happen, like I said, at certain times. But when we're maybe having too much caffeine during the day or we are overly stressed or maybe just overstimulated by certain things, then those cortisol levels can be chronically elevated, which interferes then with that melatonin release and that circadian rhythm of sleep. So we can't have all these different messages kind of going back and forth through that axis at the same time. That's just not how it works. So ideally, once those cortisol levels decrease and they are lowest while we're sleeping, usually around midnight, that's the lowest they're going to be and that's when that recovery really starts to happen. But if that cortisol hasn't really decreased, then that recovery, that deep sleep, it's just not there.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 11:24

Yes, and when you say deep sleep, like you said, that's when the body heals and unfortunately, in people with hypothyroidism, hashimoto's, that deep sleep cycle is decreased.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 11:37

Even when you're trying your best, trying to get that sleeping hygiene right, you feel like you're doing everything right to get the quality of sleep.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 11:46

We just tend to we when I say we, it's because I have Hashimoto's hypothyroidism, so I feel like I speak for my audience we have harder time not only following asleep, staying asleep, but actually getting into that deep sleep to let our body recover.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 12:05

So I think that that's why I really needed you, needed you mind you on this on this podcast, to talk about this issue, because it's it's free. It's it's a free well, free advice, sure, but it's free approach that you can start doing right now, whenever you are listening to this podcast, the next time you pick up the fork, you can already implement the things we'll be talking about the foods that can improve the quality of of of the sleep. Now, the only other thing I want to mention is that with Hashimoto's hypothyroidism, we can be doing all the great things, but if we have low thyroid hormone, if we take thyroid hormone replacement medication, or if we are in a high perthyroidism rank or range, the quality of sleep will be drastically decreased. So I encourage my listeners, clients, everybody to always test their thyroid hormones before, during and whatever they're trying to improve the quality of their sleep. So, without further ado, let's talk about how, how and why food can influence the quality of our sleep.

Karman Meyer: 13:22

Yeah, so we do have lots of research out there on specific nutrients and how they play a role in good sleep. What we need more research in and I assume that will be coming, you know, in the decades to come honestly, because there is such this fascination number one, but also a genuine connection between what we eat and how we sleep. So we just need to know how certain foods can really get us there. But we do know about the nutrients and so we know what foods have these nutrients. And you know, as dietitians we often want food to be first. There's always that time and place for supplements, of course, but if we can, we try to do food first.

Karman Meyer: 14:17

And I like to think about the nutrients in our food is kind of like our essential tools that we have to have in a toolbox to do a good job. You know, if you're doing home repair and you just have some duct tape, well that's probably not going to be a great repair in the long term. We need the right tools and those are the right nutrients to help us sleep better and feel better, and so certain foods can have a positive effect on sleep, while others might interfere with sleep. One example is vitamin B6. If we're not getting enough of that, then we cannot make use of the amino acid tryptophan. We cannot make use of that tryptophan to convert it into serotonin, which is our happy neurotransmitter, but then serotonin is then converted to melatonin, and we know that melatonin is that hormone that regulates the sleep-wake cycle. So we're missing that nutrient connection there to help the body do what it needs to do.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 15:20

Amazing, and this is just one example, right? Yes, I'm sure you have dozens of pages in the book describing which nutrient does what. Because our hormones are basically made, or they are facilitated by certain enzymes, right that they need help to be made by our body, and nutrients are the building blocks of hormones. So are there any specific foods to eat, starting in the morning all the way until you go to sleep, to improve the quality of our sleep?

Karman Meyer: 15:57

Yeah, so in the book I do cover 50 different foods, and the thing is, if you don't like, let's say, spinach, that's okay. There are going to be other foods in the book that have similar nutrients and I talk about those so that if you don't like spinach, well, you can just have this other thing instead. Okay, so lots of foods to choose from doesn't mean you have to eat all of them every day. That would be a lot. But to kind of sum it up, what would that day look like? First and foremost, have a balanced breakfast that's going to include some protein, fiber and fat. Now, that's just general kind of nutrition information, but on a deeper level.

Karman Meyer: 16:44

In regards to sleep, that can help with our blood sugar stabilization, and when we have fewer peaks and valleys, kind of that roller coaster ride with our blood sugars during the day, then that's reflected at night as well, so that we don't have that drastic blood sugar drop in the middle of the night that might cause us to wake up suddenly. We're potentially like sweating, if you've ever waked up woken up just drenched, and you don't feel right, and so that's your body saying, hey, I'm having a little blood sugar, maybe we need to eat something because we didn't eat enough during the day or we didn't have that right balance there. So it could be something simple for the morning an egg with some whole wheat toast and maybe some avocado. Or even, for the people who don't like a lot of breakfast, maybe you do a banana with some nut butter. But we just need that protein, fiber and fat. And then I want to make sure that people are staying hydrated, because if we're dehydrated, we recognize some of those symptoms during the day, but people don't think about how that affects them at night. And especially if you're prone to snoring, having dry nasal passages, being well hydrated can actually prevent that, so that we're less likely to snore wake ourselves up. So for most people, eight to 10 glasses of water or milk or other decaffeinated beverages during the day can help us get there. But if you also include more of our hydrating foods our water, rich fruits and vegetables that also counts toward hydration. Plus, lots of our fruits and veggies have another important sleep promoting nutrient, which is potassium.

Karman Meyer: 18:46

And towards the end of the day, one thing that I often talk about is tart cherry juice. So tart cherry juice is a natural source of melatonin and that is one food that we do have great research on. So that has been studied in a group of individuals who reported chronic insomnia and they drank an eight ounce glass once in the morning and then again in the evening, one to two hours before bed, and they did that for two weeks and after two weeks they actually found that they were able to extend their sleep cycle by 84 minutes. So that's almost an hour and a half more sleep for someone who's had insomnia, which you know. To some people, especially if you have insomnia, that's probably just like oh my gosh, what a lifesaver like that can change your life. So that's kind of an easy one to start with. But you don't have to. You know, go all in with twice a day, try once a day. You know that. Tart cherry juice in the evening. And again, that's for a natural source of melatonin.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 19:57

Amazing, I had no idea. I love cherries, but I'm sure the cherry juice is more concentrated and that's where you get that punch, yeah, and it is the tart cherry juice, so make sure you're looking for that variety.

Karman Meyer: 20:12

It comes from the Montmorency variety of cherries, so tart cherry juice is what we're looking for Amazing Great point.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 20:20

And you touched on blood sugar control. That's a huge one, right? I just recently had a client who would wake up in the middle of the night almost at some point sometime between two and four am and she was starving. She said I felt like I just needed to eat something or I would pass out again. She would just wake up with this anxiety.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 20:41

So we figured out that it was low blood sugar because she was eating high carbohydrate foods. She's working out, she's doing everything right as you would like, workout every day. She's very active, mother of three, she's very hyper energetic. But then she so she would follow a Mediterranean diet, which is a great healthy diet, but it's higher in carbohydrates. Her fiber intake was lower. So what would happen? Her blood sugar would drop in the middle of the night, waking her up in that in like almost cold sweats. So we're gonna decrease or introduce more healthy carbohydrates, increase fiber intake, introduce those foods that would help you fall asleep. And she stopped waking up in the middle of the night. And you know, she and she was taking like five supplements for better sleep and ashwagandha and all kinds of cortisol regulations, and none of that had to do with what she was taking. It's just blood sugar regulation and we can regulate our blood sugar with food.

Karman Meyer: 21:50

Yeah, it, of course we working in nutrition for as long as we have like for us, we, we understand, and it can be so simple. But I completely understand why people are confused by you know what to, what to believe, what to follow, what to take, and you know, just some simple changes like that, that little tweak, and she can now sleep. That's amazing.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 22:21

Small, small steps leads to huge improvement. So everything that we're talking about today is the little things you can, like I said, start doing right now, today, before you go into bed tonight, to improve the quality of your sleep. Now, what if someone doesn't want to have a bedtime snack or drink that juice which is high in sugar? Right, are there any teas or anything else we can do to improve the quality of our sleep?

Karman Meyer: 22:52

Yeah, if you if you are not a nighttime snacker you don't feel like you're having that low blood sugar in the middle of the night, definitely don't just start snacking because yeah, again, someone said bedtime snacks will help you sleep better. It's not A blanket statement like that. So, essentially for herbal teas, there are a lot of different herbs that actually can help promote sleep, one of them being camomile. Another is the learian route. Now, the learian route is not the tastiest thing on its own, so I highly recommend that if you're doing some learian route, that you have it in a blend with camomile and maybe some lavender. That also is a very calming herb peppermint. That Can be calming for some people, but actually for some people it's more invigorating. So you have to find if that one works for you.

Karman Meyer: 23:51

Yeah, yeah, for me I can do it during the daytime. I'm actually I have my peppermint tea right now, but I can also have it at night and still sleep well. So it is still very personalized. But yeah, they, the learian and camomile specifically actually kind of have the sedative effect. They work on the central nervous system and there have been some studies with women in that menopause phase where having hot flashes not sleeping well but adding in that tea actually helped them to sleep better.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 24:27

Such a great point. Yeah, camomile, I think it's the most researched herb we know of in. Actually, when it comes to Hashimoto's hypothyroidism, studies show that camomile had has a thyroid benefit and it includes decreasing the risk of thyroid cancer by 80%. Now that number is a little exaggerated, right even for us. We're like we're so hopeful and we want to trust that, but it was probably high concentrated and unless you drink camomile tea A lot of it every day, I wouldn't drink camomile tea to improve my thyroid function because that's probably not enough. But it's just something to keep in the back of your mind that there is an extra benefit. And another tea that actually saw in the story was a catnip tea, which you know can can cause cats to go wild, but in humans, in us, it can actually have a calming effect. I was actually surprised I had to research that, but catnip tea is one to add to your list.

Karman Meyer: 25:35

Yeah, marshmallow root is another one and I'm going to go licorice root oh yes yes, yes.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 25:45

So those are the teas, right? So we covered the food, we cover the tea. Now. Are there any foods that people should avoid by all means before going to sleep?

Karman Meyer: 25:58

So definitely, having too much fat in a meal, especially before bed, can really cause some digestive issues and if you're prone to reflux, we want to avoid that and with reflux, you know there there are certain trigger foods for that and anyone who has reflux probably already knows what those are for them. But avoiding that so you're not having those symptoms at night. Caffeine is one that you know. It is again very personalized. Some people process caffeine very quickly and some people are more caffeine sensitive. So the general rule of thumb is that we want to cut off our caffeine intake about eight to ten hours before we're trying to go to bed, because it takes about that long for caffeine to work its way out of our system.

Karman Meyer: 26:52

But again, if you find that you are very caffeine sensitive meaning If you drink a cup of coffee you can kind of feel your heart beating faster or you feel a little bit anxious and jittery then you may need to cut that caffeine off earlier in the day. And the last thing that affects everyone really just about the same, and there's there's no way around it's negative sleep effects is alcohol. You know alcohol is usually something that we are having in the evening time, but if we can give ourselves about five hours between having Maybe a glass of wine or whatever it is and then going to bed and making sure we're rehydrating with water to help kind of flush that from our system. But we know that alcohol will interfere with those deep stages of sleep and again there's just there's not really Any evidence.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 27:56

The research has shown time and time again that it will just keep us from those deep restorative stages of sleep a glass of wine definitely helps me to fall asleep, but I I realized that might the quality of my sleep is not the same. It actually decreased. So I have to pick and choose between what I want to fall asleep faster or stay asleep.

Karman Meyer: 28:22

Yeah, that that's where it gets confusing again, because people might think, well, gosh, I fall asleep really easily and I think I have a good night of sleep because I don't remember waking up. But that's usually the effects of the alcohol still in our system where we don't. We don't actually remember, yeah, that we're waking up, we're tossing and turning and not getting to the deep stages of sleep where memory consolidation Happens and muscle repair. So, yeah, we have to make that choice, like said, kind of like we mentioned, with those later nights out occasionally they're gonna happen Same thing with alcohol and making sure we're rehydrating that that is really helpful To our system, to drink enough water.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 29:08

And it goes without saying that it doesn't matter how healthy your diet is if you eat too many calories before you go to sleep. If you feel too full, you will have problems first digesting right, falling asleep and staying asleep. So I think limiting your calories, especially before going to bed, is another point. Even even if you're eating healthy foods, right is just how full you feel.

Karman Meyer: 29:35

Yeah, yeah, we don't want to Overdo it in her stomach. You know that that's most times a day, but if that's like our lunch meal, where it's maybe a little heavier than usual, at least we have some hours before we're going to bed where we can help our system to digest that. Maybe we go for a walk or we're just gonna be using some of that energy, whereas if it's, you know, three or four hours before bedtime, then that is just gonna be sitting in our system longer and, like said, maybe some blood sugar drops could happen. So it's just more prone to poor sleep.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 30:17

Absolutely makes so much sense. Now. We covered a lot of information, right? We touched on a lot of nuances and approaches. Are there? Is there any A quick start that we can refer our listeners to, that they they can get more information from?

Karman Meyer: 30:36

Yes, so as far as you know, like a quick start when we talked about just the protein fiber and bat at our meals but Looking for those natural food sources of melatonin, talked about the tart cherry juice Incorporating that. Another key one is Magnesium, and that is such an important nutrient for sleep. So talking to your Primary care physician or a dietitian to see what your magnesium status might be, because that can really really have an effect on inflammation in the body, how we handle stress and then that sleep. But Just quickly, you know, if you're looking for like, what can I do tonight or today, tomorrow? Those herbal teas are definitely a great, great place to start to.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 31:35

Fantastic, it's kind of. You summarized it so well and, of course, our listeners can find more information in your book. Right, it's available on Amazon. You can probably ship it to our delivery. So, yeah, yes, beautiful, yes, it's such a beautiful book.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 31:55

It's full of great information, but our listeners can probably order it right now and it will be at their front door at 8pm tonight so they can start getting ready to sleep better. Right, and of course we kind of we didn't really talk about the conventional treatments to improve quality of sleep, but that's you know. Of course we all know about keeping our room dark and cold, right, avoid screen time before sleep, which I don't think anybody does that anymore. Everybody's on their phone on Instagram and I see my followers when they like the videos. I see it all happens at night. So get off your phones, read the book. Read Sleep to Eat book. Learn something new. Calm your brain down, right.

Karman Meyer: 32:46

Yeah.

Karman Meyer: 32:47

So, all of those things are still, yeah, equally important. Like I said, your environment really affects sleep and light, so your devices, your overhead lights. But setting up a very calming kind of bedtime routine can help prepare your brain for sleep. It gives your brain the signal like, oh, you know, we do this every, we do this routine every night around the same time, and then we get in bed and so you're teaching your brain to learn how to prepare for sleep again, and that can include that hot cup of herbal tea, maybe a warm bath, maybe some lavender essential oils, dim lighting and reading a book. That can really help prepare us for a night of sleep.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 33:43

Yeah, so many great points. I feel like we all should create a checklist and put it on our fridge and say, okay, am I off my phone two hours before and go? You know, is the room cold? Is this? And like I mean, you named so many great approaches, so I feel like we should have a checklist every time before we go to bed.

Karman Meyer: 34:04

Well, funny, you mentioned that, because there actually is a checklist in the book about you know what to do. It's at the very, very back, it's kind of an appendix. But yeah, actually turned good sleep to a list. So yeah, that way you can make a copy of that and just mark it off day to day to try to help you stay on track.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 34:28

Amazing and I feel like we, as human beings, we love checklists, right. We have calendars, we have phone. You know everything that keeps track of what we do daily. We love checking boxes off because we feel more productive. So I think this is a great way to this is a great checklist to include. It's not just busy, busy work. So if you don't do that checklist, then don't complain that you don't know how to improve the quality of your sleep, right.

Karman Meyer: 34:59

That's true. I mean, I tried to lay it out and make it simple for everyone. But yeah, you know, if people do have questions, feel free to connect with me as well. I'm on Instagram. My name is spelled differently, but you can find me at Carmen Meyer, K-A-R-M-A-N-M-E-Y-E-R. Yeah, I'll be happy to connect with people and answer questions.

Nataliia Sanzo, RDN: 35:26

And I will have your information. Everything is going to be linked in the podcast notes section so people can just click learn a little bit more about you. And you do a lot of recipes right. You're a recipe developer, so lots of other things other than improving sleep on your page Very cool, very entertaining as well. Thank you, yes, well, carmen, thank you so much for joining Hashimoto's NutritionRx podcast. I'm so happy to have you here. We need to do another episode to talk maybe a little bit more or to pick just one topic, because there's so much to cover. I mean, we can talk about it for hours. So I really appreciate your time and thank you for joining us.

Karman Meyer: 36:15

Thank, you so much. I appreciate it sharing, and have a great rest of your day. Thank you, bye.